Reminder that ToEE Review and ToEE builds are based on the original Troika version; that is, patch2 ToEE. Please don't come crying to me if the party composition or build doesn't work because you're playing the wrong version of ToEE. If you're running Temple+, I have added such builds in the above-linked article.
ToEE Character Creation
ToEE Alignment
Click New Game and choose your alignment. This will affect the opening vignette (which is irrelevant) and a few builds.
Lawful Good is where it's at for newbies: you want your Cleric to Turn Undead and be able to craft Holy/Axiomatic weapons in order to SMITE THE EVIL. You will be presented with the Character Pool menu. Hide pregens and alignment-incompatibles.
ToEE Rolling / Point Buy
There are two ways to generate your stats in ToEE: rolling and point-buying. Rolling works similar to Baldur's Gate; you just keep re-rolling until you get the stats you're happy with. Point buy works similar to Neverwinter Nights: you have a pool of 25 points to spend on the 6 attributes.
Now, there is a cheat you can employ here to save yourself some time and just get the exact stats you want.
Now, there is a cheat you can employ here to save yourself some time and just get the exact stats you want.
ToEE Cheat
Switch to "Advanced: Point Buy" and set a given stat to the value you want (max 18). Now, click-hold on that value and drag it to the right, dropping it just to the right of the up/down arrows. You will see that your value has disappeared and been replaced with the value that was in the rolling menu (if there was a rolled value; otherwise, it'll turn blank).
If you switch back to the rolling menu, you will see your cheat-stat there. Do not assign the stat to an empty box just yet. Switch back to "Point Buy" and you will see that the point pool has been refreshed. Rinse-repeat for the other stats. When you're happy with your stats, assign them (drag them to the left).
Finally, add the character to the party and then create your next character.
Finally, add the character to the party and then create your next character.
Pic: I don't recommend going crazy on all 18s; it's just there as a clear example. Please use common sense or you might suck the enjoyment out of the game.
Note that this convenience cheat has been removed in Temple+. The only ways to get the stats you want in Temple+ is to use the ToEE console or give yourself more point-buy points via its configuration menu. Again, I wouldn't go crazy or you might suck the enjoyment out of the game.
Note that this convenience cheat has been removed in Temple+. The only ways to get the stats you want in Temple+ is to use the ToEE console or give yourself more point-buy points via its configuration menu. Again, I wouldn't go crazy or you might suck the enjoyment out of the game.
ToEE Party Composition
- Unless you're experienced, you may have a tough time in the alignment-based opening vignette (which may set you against hostiles)
- Party members created in-campaign will not have any default gear on their person
As in Icewind Dale 1 and Icewind Dale 2, you can modify your party composition at any time over the course of the campaign; the difference being that you need to find an inn. This is handy if you gimped your character and need to replace them with another, or if you just want to try out something new, mid-campaign. But new additions to your party do not scale to the level of the current party, so you will have to accept your first level scrubs and then train them up.
In regards to party composition recommendations, I'm not going to take the companion pool into consideration because most players don't bother with companions in the early going, if at all. Early on, they might find Elmo, Burne or Lareth attractive; and later, they might find Prince Thrommel, Oolghrist the troll or Scorpp the Hill Giant irresistible, but that's just a bonus. I've never relied on or bothered with companions, except to temp-recruit them, slay them outside town, kick their corpses out of the party and then loot them, but play how you like.
ToEE Best Party Composition
I recommend a traditional party consisting of:
Those are the mainstays that allow us to take on any challenge presented by the game.
In addition, you could optionally add one of the following:
That Lawful Good party will get new players through the game with ease (assuming you follow the builds).
I recommend new players steer clear of Paladin Build ToEE because they can become "fallen" easily.
Race-wise I mostly go Human for their advantages: +feat, +skillpoints and +multi-classing options.
Assuming the characters are created and built to focus on a specific combat / utility role, and not diluted to become Jacks-of-all-trades, such traditional parties will get through the campaign without too much trouble; mainly, because they don't sacrifice BAB/spellcasting progression to do fancy stuff.
I think it's best to think in terms of descriptive role rather than classes. In ToEE it's nice to have the following:
In regards to scouting conventional stealth's movement rate is rather tedious; thus, you're better off employing magical stealth such as Invisibility. You don't need a diplomat or a wilderness expert at all, but such "fifth wheels" are a nice luxury and can add flavor, too. Bards and Druids have unique spell ranges and interesting abilities in ToEE.
I recommend new players steer clear of Paladin Build ToEE because they can become "fallen" easily.
Race-wise I mostly go Human for their advantages: +feat, +skillpoints and +multi-classing options.
Assuming the characters are created and built to focus on a specific combat / utility role, and not diluted to become Jacks-of-all-trades, such traditional parties will get through the campaign without too much trouble; mainly, because they don't sacrifice BAB/spellcasting progression to do fancy stuff.
I think it's best to think in terms of descriptive role rather than classes. In ToEE it's nice to have the following:
- solid conventional tank aka physical-based damage-dealer (warrior)
- divine healer, buffer, disruptor, crafter (cleric/priest)
- arcane immobilizer, buffer, bombardier, crafter (mage/wizard)
- skill-monkey, sneak-attacker, scout (rogue/thief)
In regards to scouting conventional stealth's movement rate is rather tedious; thus, you're better off employing magical stealth such as Invisibility. You don't need a diplomat or a wilderness expert at all, but such "fifth wheels" are a nice luxury and can add flavor, too. Bards and Druids have unique spell ranges and interesting abilities in ToEE.
ToEE Crafting
Crafting is important in ToEE; even moreso than it is in Storm of Zehir (the other 3.5 game notable for its crafting mechanics). A party lacking crafting ability is gimped because itemization itself won't carry it through unless we possess detailed foreknowledge of the campaign. Seriously, have fun chipping away at Galeb Duhr without crafted elemental weapons.
ToEE Crafting Feats
Of course, crafts are not free: they cost two Feats for the build, they will drain your coffers, and they will drain your crafter's experience points. So yeah, kill the enemies, loot the corpses and flog off as many wares as you can to the merchants in order to fund your crafts.
- Craft Wondrous Item (caster level 3rd)
- Craft Magic Arms & Armor (caster level 5th)
ToEE Tactics
Before we get into builds, I just want to declare which ToEE feats and tactics are KING in ToEE. By "king" I mean which feats and tactics make the combat encounters much easier to beat.
Observing the four points below will help you dominate what is, at least by today's standards, an exceedingly difficult and unforgiving game.
Reach Weapon + Combat Reflexes
Reach Weapon + Combat Reflexes = I Win. The number one feat for martial classes is not Cleave but rather Combat Reflexes when wielding Reach Weapons such as Glaives. Combat Reflexes is a very powerful feat because it allows us to execute 3x AoOs (Attack of Opportunity) with a Dexterity score of 15. Combined with a 10' threat-radius weapon (Glaive), Combat Reflexes is devastating.
Moreover, non-chained reach weapons in vanilla ToEE have (erroneous) donut reach; that is, their threat radius is an implausibly versatile 5-10' instead of only 10'. This advantageous oversight can be optionally toggled in Temple+ config.
Of course, we can and do combine Combat Reflexes with Cleave and Great Cleave: some idiot charges into our ranks, we skewer him, then we skewer an adjacent foe, and then we skewer an entire mob. And it isn't even our turn...
Bonus tip: To avoid AoOs inflicted on us we take a 5-foot step when entering an opponent's threat radius.
Intitiative ToEE
Improved Initiative feat + High Dexterity score = I Win. Those who act first win. Do we want our Fireball or Turn Undead spell/ability to wait while we watch the enemies shamble towards us, one by one, or while we tediously poke away at them with ineffective weapons? No. We want to throw in that AoE and wipe them out in the blink of an eye. Thus do we strive for Initiative modifiers.
Empowered Evocations
Empower Spell (Fireball) = I Win. This AoE is the province of Sorcerers & Wizards. In respect to mobs, lock 'em down and light 'em up.
I Just Want to Kick Massive Amounts of Ass
In many situations the most devastating build in the game is the Whirlwinder: ToEE Fighter Build and Temple+ Fighter Build.
Ok, let's move on to builds.
Ahh, yes...the glaive wielding warrior w/combat reflexes and a high dex score. I liked Half-orc low intelligence barbarians using a similar scheme paired with rage. Reading your character suggestions bring back some fond memories. I was especially partial to Pelor clerics. That sweet and powerful enhanced undead turning of a Sun domain Pelor priest makes for a nice cake walk in some of the early battles versus skeletons and zombies. Good times.
ReplyDeleteThanks the reminder of Pelor/Sun domain. Post updated with a note.
DeleteI wonder what system is better - random pointbuy based on dice like her and in BG or pulling points from one maxed pool like in Nwn 1 and 2
ReplyDeleteOn balance, I would have to come down on the side of point buy systems as being ultimately better. Constantly re-rolling to get decent stats before one can even really start the game is annoyingly tedious. Alternatively, if one could discipline oneself to simply accept a bad roll (or a game could somehow force one too), it would make for a game in which pure luck was excessively important. Balancing the game for those who accept bad rolls, try only for "good enough" rolls, or who have the patience to wait for perfect rolls could also be somewhat problematic.
DeleteHowever, point buy systems do have one disadvantage: with them there it very hard to find a convincing reason to play anything other than a min-maxed power build. Random rolling lends itself more to creating oddball characters with quirky stats, with concomitant role-playing advantages, as one saves time by going with rolls that are good enough but less than perfect, or, alternatively, on a really good roll, give a character a bit more INT or CHA than is strictly necessary for power-gaming purposes, making.
(Your post ninja'd mine. I basically just said that I prefer point-buy because re-rolling is tedious.)
DeleteLet's take a more explicit example: Strength score for a warrior in BG.
Score / to-hit / dmg
• 3: -3, -1
• 4-5: -2, -1
• 6-7: -1, +0
• 8-15: +0, +0
• 16: +0, +1
• 17: +1, +1
• 18: +1, +1
• 18/01-50: +1, +3
• 18/51-75: +2, +3
• 18/76-90: +2, +4
• 18/91-99: +2, +5 (10% chance of rolling in chargen)
• 18/00: +3, +6 (1% chance of rolling in chargen)
So the difference between 3 and 18/00 is HUGE. One could barely hit a mook whereas the other will likely hit and definitely kill in one blow.
As Rogueknight 333 said, difficult to balance for. But we must remember that player has access to the following, in-campaign:
Stength of One (third circle cleric spell): sets Strength to 18/75 for 1 turn
Strength (second circle arcane spell): sets Strength to 18/50 for 1 turn per caster lvl
Potion of Strength (sets Strength to 18, 20 turns)
Gauntlets of Ogre Power (sets Strength to 18/00 for as long as they are worn)
Player can also still reach super-human Strength scores by virtue of potions:
• 19: +3, +7
• 20: +3, +8
• 21: +4, +9
• 22: +4, +10
• 23: +5, +11
• 24: +6, +12
• 25: +7, +14
Potion of Hill Giant Strength (sets Strength to 19, 10 turns)
Potion of Stone Giant Strength (sets Strength to 20, 10 turns)
Potion of Frost Giant Strength (sets Strength to 21, 10 turns)
Potion of Fire Giant Strength (sets Strength to 22, 10 turns)
Potion of Cloud Giant Strength (sets Strength to 23, 10 turns)
Potion of Storm Giant Strength (sets Strength to , 10 turns)
Violet Potion (sets Strength to 25, Dex 3, Con 3, 24 hours)
So, what I'm saying is, you can still sort of get by with low Strength because, for the most part, BG Strength boosts generally SET the score rather than just adding to it (examples of exceptions are the Manual of Gainful Exercise and DUHM.)
And what a sub-optimal Strength score does is, it gets you relying more on buffs and items.
I may have ninja skills but it seems my typing skills need work. My 2nd paragraph above is rather mangled, but hopefully still comprehensible.
DeleteAt any rate, you would have to survive long enough to obtain those items, potions, spells etc., which could be a challenge for a character with lots of 3 scores. Your examples are also Baldur's Gate-specific, and though that is indeed the chief game most people would think of with regard to randomly rolled stats, the question might also be asked more abstractly. If, for example, one were designing an RPG system from scratch and considering whether point-buy or random rolls were better, BG-specific stat boosts might not be relevant (though most systems do have some sort of stat-boosting mechanic).
Of course even with a point buy system it is not as if the difference between an expert player's powerbuild and a noob putting points in whatever looks cool is not also significant. The main disadvantage is just the tedium, while the main advantage is the increased likelihood of interesting, idiosyncratic characters (e.g., your strength discussion above reminded me of the very, very few BG & IWD characters for which I actually managed to roll 18/00, which of course made them particularly memorable).
Oh, I do agree with everything you said; you expressed it very well, too.
DeletePlease excuse my tangentiality and explictness. I blame the gulping of red wine :P
In regard to 18/00 Strength, I confess to rolling for it several times over the years. Of course, these days, being that I'm getting on in years / increasingly realizing the shortness of life (and its brutish and nasty nature, to quote Hobbes), I reflexively employ the Ctrl + 8 cheat (even Shadowkeeping stats is a rigmorole for which I no longer have the patience). And yes, in ToEE, I employ the above cheat (detailed in the body of the post) in order to yield the desired stats (I believe this cheat no longer works in Temple+).
Note that, by employing the above cheats, one does not have to accept perfect 18s. You can certainly be reasonable and begin the game with un-spents. Thus, I justify it to myself (and indeed, lose some of the magic that stems from the idiosyncracy that you are right to have mentioned.)
Yeah, bad roll is a problem but since we are talking about computer games we can kinda fix it on start. For example we are ok with our player rolling 3 stats equal to 16 and 3 stats as 3. 48+9=57 points minimum. So we program our random stat generator in such a way that it wont give us pointbuy lower then 57, but still allowing you to miracally roll perfect 18 in each stat. As far as I know BG already do something similar since I don't remember ever rolling less then 48 stat total 48
DeleteI've rolled plenty of bad stats in BG, although I can't say for sure the totals after all this time. What I do remember, though, is that it adjusts your rolls so that you always have at least the minimum required stats for your chosen class.
DeleteYes, which is why 90 rolls on Paladins are easy to get. There are also racial ability mins.
DeleteDear lilura, when you have time could you kindly update this post to include builds for bards, druids and magic users
ReplyDelete